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Launching An Online Course With Confidence And Clarity

"It is so important to make friendships and real relationships online. Don't be afraid to reach out to people. Don't approach people because you have an offer. Approach people to add value and create a relationship." - Glenn Allen

Glenn Allen - Michelle Hagen

With a worldwide pandemic rocking our worlds this past year, many people have had to unexpectedly switch gears, with millions becoming stay-at-home/work-from-home parents seemingly overnight. During this major transitional period, many have turned to online courses as a way to work from home and continue to make money during the Pandemic. Glen Allen is "The Go-To CMO of Digital Course Launches" and helps entrepreneurs turn their expertise into digital courses and membership sites. Listen in to today's episode to learn how you can catapult your business forward with a clear, confident, and successful online course launch!

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Michelle Hagen 0:00

Hi, Glenn, welcome to the podcast.

Glenn Allen 0:02

Thanks, I appreciate you having me on.

Michelle Hagen 0:05

I am excited to dive into courses which have been like the boom of this last year. But first tell us what's new in your world? What is the new and up and coming things that 2021 are the pandemic brought to you this year?

Glenn Allen 0:22

Well, first of all, you know, of course, homeschooling has been a big thing, but it's been taken off my plate. I'm divorced. And fortunately, my ex has been gracious enough to take it over. So that's freed me up big time. So I'm super excited about that. Beyond that, I just feel like I'll ever do is talk to people through a screen all the time. So I'm getting a little bit burned out about that. I'm just ready to so ready to just like, go to a coffee shop and hang out with people? I don't know.

Michelle Hagen 0:54

Yes, I feel the same way. And it's like even, I mean, podcasting was always virtual. But I guess I started this in the pandemic. But it's like this weird thing of being like, you and I are friends. Like we have talked to each other virtually so many times, but never have like, actually been in the same room to breathe the same air like it is like it's like, I just want to hug people and be like, Oh my gosh, I finally couldn't see your face. For sure. I feel the exact same way. And I'm so glad homeschooling got taken off your plate. I know you and I, at the beginning of the school year had been chatting about like, what are we going to do? And how do we find the right homeschool? And how do you balance it all? I would love for you to kind of dive in because I know you have your kids part time. But what does it look like for you being a dad? Because I feel like no one ever asked the question of like your dad, how do you do it all but you're a single parent. So what does it look like for you on a normal day when you're working and you have kids.

Glenn Allen 1:52

So they go to their mothers for a week, and then they come to me for a week. And they have you know, homeschool homework to work on. And during that time, it's generally pretty quiet. Other than I hear a lot of like, my daughter who's mini mom, she's 10 yelling at her two younger brothers, you know, waiting, you know, so she keeps them on task. But sometimes I have to like it. I'll hear that while I'm like on a podcast or on a call with somebody and people are pretty gracious about it. Fortunately, um, but you know, generally speaking, luckily, they love to play outside, it's been crazy snowy, and there's a park directly across the street from my house where they're sledding all the time, that keeps them busy. But it is it is a lot of just kind of get on a call, try to just hope that they're not going to come bothering me, but all the time, like, they'll just like come over and like my corner, I'll be talking like this. And I'll try to keep my thoughts together. And I'll lose my frame, like what I'm saying, because in the corner is my son with like a sign that says like, Can we go to ollie and Jordan's house. But, I mean, it's at the same time, I have to remember like, I wouldn't have this opportunity to you know, spend time with them if I was still working in an office. So it's, nonetheless,

Michelle Hagen 3:08

yeah, and I think the pandemic has kind of opened this door for working parents again to like normalize it like before it was you have to be at work and your kids cannot interrupt ever. And I love how it is now normalize the working parent again, and kind of shed the light of how much a parent is doing. While they're you know, they're still a parent and they're working, you know, like, we only can fill so many buckets in so many ways. And I agree it's the exact same way for me even today is a like a snow day for one late start for the other and I told my husband I was like, it's okay, it's Glenn, if that's your comes up in interrupts he gets it so it's okay, and we'll just edit it out. But that is the world that we are living in. And, but it's also like a great thing that I hope that some of that stays when we go back, like having the grace of a parent who has their kids at home with them to still know that they're working, but maybe still have a toddler on the couch watching TV while they're trying to get some work done.

Glenn Allen 4:10

I totally agree. It's funny because I worked, you know, I landed like an absolute dream job. And we had, we had worked from home but it was like you couldn't you know, you couldn't really abuse it. You can only use it so often. And I always kind of felt guilty if my kids are home and I was dealing with them and tending to that, but they're pretty gracious about it. Because the founder, you know, she started that business with her twins and older daughter. So it's like she had also three kids around my you know, around my age, doing the same kind of thing. So she's always been cool about it. But there was a point where finally they just decided there's just not enough activity in the office. It's kind of boring when everybody's working from home and so they decided for the morality office. They're going to end work from home and that was before a quarantine. Nevermind, don't come into the office at all.

Michelle Hagen 5:04

Oh, man, that's kind of it's so interesting. And even for me, quarantine went, I was out of town traveling. And I like self quarantine because we knew that we should, but it like hadn't really been in lockdown. And then we went into quarantine and my husband at home. And yeah, it all has changed, which a lot of things have changed in this year, which speaking of we've seen, I mean, courses were popular, but I feel like we have seen this massive boom in courses and people using their knowledge and sharing their knowledge. And it's amazing what people are creating, and you're an expert on courses. So I thought like, let's talk about this. And how do we know when we're ready to create courses? And when people you know, have now been home, and a lot of people have created side hustles? When do we even know like, Okay, it's time to create a course?

Glenn Allen 6:00

Well, there's so many people who I mean, they're just either they're just tired of their job, and they want to start an online business, or they're realizing that their situation is secure, because they've been furloughed, or, you know, they can't do the in person thing. And so they have to make a switch. So there's Yeah, there's this huge influx of people who are saying, like, I gotta make a course. And I think the challenging thing there is, so many people don't even know how to, I guess, number one, market a course. And then there's like a million launch strategies, even though there's like, predominantly, you know, one or two really popular ones, they're not really one size fits all. And then the other thing is, some people just don't have experience coaching, training or teaching people. So I always say like, if you've never actually had experience, either doing a workshop of this material or breaking, want to make a course out of, or you haven't been paid to teach it in some kind of way, or you're not consulting and coaching on it, do that first. Because otherwise, you're going to put a ton of time into something that you're not sure people actually once and I see this happen all the time, they come to me like, you know, I've got this course, can you help me it's not selling? And I look at it, I'll say, Are you sure people actually want this? It's not just even just validating, which is one thing, you know, a lot of people are taught to do, you know, get on, get on a bunch of calls with a bunch of people and say, Hey, would this be helpful to you? Because I see people do that, too. And the people on the other line will be like, yeah, that sounds helpful. But that's not validating it. Actually, teaching people how to do something. And then learning the fact that they don't think the way you do you know, like, I'm an expert in a bunch of different things in the music world. And I used to be a music teacher, it's how I got into this whole thing. And what I was finding is the way I think and the way I approach music, and my mindset around it was very different than other people, they would say, like, what is the hardest instrument you play, you know, because I play 11 instruments. So they'd be like, you know, is guitar harder than saxophone or is drums harder, because you have to use all your limbs, and I said, none of that. Because music is not hard, or easy. It is only familiar or unfamiliar, in the same way. You know, like speaking English is not hard or easy to us. It's just familiar to us. And if we want to learn another language, it's challenging. But to that native speaker, it's not because they're familiar with it. So it's just all familiarity, right? Just change your mind on that. And so, you know, I started learning those kinds of things about my students that they had these kind of like, assumptions like, and some of them were flat out wrong. Like, you know, once you get to a certain age, you're never gonna learn as fast. Well, we've, we've just proved that with with research. Little kids have an advantage of learning music and all these different things. It's like, No, they don't, they just approach learning a little bit differently. So when you have those kinds of insights, you're able to bake those into the way you teach, and come up with your own proprietary processes. Because I guarantee you're going to repeat yourself over and over, the more you do it in certain areas, and you're gonna get noticed, there's kind of a trend in what people struggle with that maybe you didn't, because you have the expertise. Mm hmm. You're ready, I think, when you you have a process, maybe even your own proprietary process, you know, some systematic things that you know, and you know, where people are gonna struggle along the way and you kind of, you can sort of preemptively address that. Um, you know, you don't have to know how to market at all it's just it makes it so much easier. You don't have to know everything, but you at least should have some experience teaching other people first.

Michelle Hagen 9:44

I loved that piece that you said about the learning music, and how it just familiar or unfamiliar because it is funny because I'm dyslexic, so I tried to learn piano by like the teacher looking at the notes and as an adult, I'm like, Well, of course like I couldn't figure it out, because that's not how my brain works. But if someone taught me the chords now as an adult, I can play the chords to like the song, but I can't you know, I don't know that the in between keys, but it literally was of just how does my process and my brain work? Which makes me think, do you think as you're creating a course because we all have the different processes of how our brain works and what works better, which is amazing, because it gives us all different perspectives. When you are targeting your course, do you think you should be targeting it to like the people who learn like, you

Glenn Allen 10:38

know, because you're going to really limit, you know, your potential for sales, I think you have to kind of factor in that lots of people learn in different ways. For some, it's, it's auditory, for some, it's visual, and then you just kind of cater to those needs in different ways within a course. Also, people are going to be at different levels. So sometimes you have to figure out, Okay, what is the scope of this, I see a lot of people are like, I'm gonna create a course that's like soup to nuts, all this stuff. And it's 12 modules, and it's like, well, you're not gonna have a lot of completion of that course. And so the success rate of people will be limited, therefore, reselling, it will be really hard because you need success stories to hook more people. When you relaunch.

Michelle Hagen 11:27

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's great advice. Okay, so let's say we've decided, Okay, I actually have an idea. And I've worked one on one with some people. And I've caught the concept has worked. And we, we've worked through it, because I loved how you also touched on those discovery calls don't always work. Because there have been people that I've worked with, where they're like, well, I did the discovery calls and and, and just by knowing I'm like, that's not gonna work, I can just tell you, it's not going to work. But we've we've figured out we've worked one on one and created the process. And I know you and I have talked about this before in the strategy around it. And as being a sales strategist, I know there are so many different strategies around how we sell it, and so many different funnels, which I know you're really good at, and we see a lot of the webinar or we see it like creating a challenge into your course. How do we know which strategy to pick for our audience?

Glenn Allen 12:24

I think, you know, some people will tell you just pick a system. And it's it's not the magic of the system. It's the magic of taking a system and sticking with something that's going to give you success. But I don't always believe that's true. A lot of the work I get is from people who used to be in Amy Porterfield digital course Academy, it's a great course. But largely overwhelming for a lot of people that come to me because there's so many new things they have to take on, besides like, getting over the nerves to get on camera, or getting over the nerves to you know, make validation calls, or learning how to list bills, or, you know, the tech of sequences. They also, you know, have to do something like a webinar. And webinars are like one of the most commonly known launch mechanisms, but they're so prevalent that I think a lot of people don't feel aligned with it, or it takes a lot of there's a certain amount of like, you have to do it a bunch of times, like I did a webinar. And it was like my first like real sales webinar. And even though I've coached people through it a ton of times, and I've designed them my first time doing it was so bad. And going back to this music analogy. It was like, you know, when you're a musician, and you're learning how to play music, oftentimes you learn scales and everything's doremi Faso, la dee da, or you learn your blues scales, and it's like, bah, bah, bah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Like, it's not music, it's just, it's just the the formula. But once you've internalized it and done it repeated a bunch of times, you can learn how to like, you put phrases into it and weave in and out of things and improvise and then becomes like music and the webinar that takes quite a few passes before it becomes like music and becomes natural. It's going to be like, very robotic and formulaic and it feels a little salesy and unnatural. So some people, they're just not even, I don't know, some people, they're great on video, some people are terrible on video, you can always get better at things, but I say go with your gifts. So if you're like I feel better in a scripted or pre recorded video, there's a launch mechanism for that, you know, that's like the Jeff Walker style kind of thing. Otherwise known as ovvio. For people who know Brendon Burchard material. For some people, they're great at like coaching in a community so great do a boot camp or a five day challenge. I often dissuade a lot of people from webinars unless they've got that webinar personality. I've got a few past clients who it's like, like my friend Amanda Horvath. She's like You know, she's big YouTuber. She's been doing it for a while and she's got like over 30,000 followers, she's great on camera, she's got that energy. She's one of the only people I've worked with roses like you have to just keep doing webinars, you're amazing at it, she she has that. But a lot of people's like, you should probably re record or you should probably just record this and drip it out over a few days and like do that whole thing. So you have to go with your strengths. Knowing that yes, you can get better at certain things, there's just some things where it's just like, it's just not a one size fits all, you shouldn't force it if it isn't working for you. So I don't think there is like a best strategy. However, my favorite is still the Jeff Walker style approach, record. Three short videos, the sideways sales letter thing, I mean, I've I've probably had the most clients success when they do that.

Michelle Hagen 15:53

I love the piece where you'd said like, go with your strengths, because that is one of the pieces that as a sales strategist, I teach as well be like, if you're not good at reels, don't do the reels yet, like work on what we're good at. And then as you continue to build to add on the other pieces, and that's really your true desire, like you really want to be the whole Amy Porterfield and have the entire webinar thing, start with what you've got, and then added on. And I love how you touched on that piece. Because I think that's the important thing. If people weren't listening in your passive listening, go with your strengths, if that's the one piece that they took out of that, that I love that you touched on, because when we go with our strengths, that's when we'll see success for sure.

Glenn Allen 16:41

Yeah, you're gonna feel more natural and more passionate about it.

Michelle Hagen 16:45

So going as that piece of talking about our strengths and going with it, a lot of times people don't, or they create a course and then they fail. Or there's just things that we all make mistakes. What are the biggest mistakes that you're seeing course creators make right now?

Glenn Allen 17:04

There's a few of them. You know, one of them is you mentioned people create a course that fails. I think sometimes it's, it's thinking that, you know, because you made a course and it fails, courses don't work or you're a failure. It doesn't. It's you know, failures are what you make them mean. And sometimes they mean, you need to go back to the drawing board and find out what people want like bringing back Amanda Horvath as, for example, like our first launch was like a nice five figure launch. And then she more than doubled it. And now she's like, you know, doing way beyond that with relaunches and stuff. But that wasn't the case with her first launch, before we met, she created a video course teaching people I don't know, like how to like, outsource a bunch of your video. And basically, she took her DIY work. And she put it into a course. And she thought this is what I would want. This is what my DIY people want. But a DIY client that she has has a very different mindset about how they want to do things, versus a person who wants to do it and learn how to do it. And she basically assumed she knew what people wanted. And that course sold to nobody. And so she scrapped it. And instead of deciding, okay, I'm a failure, I don't know what I'm doing. She asked everybody, what do you actually want? What are you struggling with, you know, the people who would actually want to do this kind of thing themselves. The one of the absolute biggest, you know, mistakes is, of course, you know, assuming you know, what people want, assuming you you have because you're an expert, people will also learn your way I've taken courses where I've spent like 10s of 1000s of dollars on courses over the last 10 years easily. And in in a wide range of things, not just marketing, but like music, like making food, all kinds of stuff. And when when people like layout things in a way that like it's the way they do them, but they don't go back to the beginning and say, Okay, here are the things that you like, like the real fundamental things you might not know about this thing. You lose a lot of people, I took a course from a Facebook ads strategist, good friend of mine who she used to work at Facebook, and so she's total expert. But she kept losing us in like the simplest dumb Little things like we forgot. Where do we like when our ads stop running? What's happening with like this billing error we get? Well, she didn't cover like this is this very basic thing in the beginning of like, here's where you go for billing and your credit card and setting your budgets. So that like all the stuff she was teaching us wouldn't keep stopping on us when we're running ads. And so like those little fundamental things often you know, that's again, going back to why you really want to run it through with beginners and see what they're struggling with all the time and you're gonna find a lot of the same common things. And then the other thing is creating this wonderful perfect product but not having a you know, an audience is like One of the other things like it's 50% of the work to have a course. But that other 50 is, you know, you got to either have your own engaged list, or learn how to borrow somebody else's.

Michelle Hagen 20:13

So what does that look like? Because as you're talking about the own engaged list a lot of times like we all have people that follow us on social media, how do we know if they're engaged, and they're ready for us to create a course? Or I, you know, I think about people, we talk about the email list and how important our email list is, this is kind of a loaded question. But we talked, you know, we have the email list, like how many people should be on our email list? before we launch a course? What does that look like to know that you have an audience that's ready for you to create a course?

Glenn Allen 20:45

Whoo, that is a loaded question. I mean, first of all, social media is like, it's great when you have a ton of followers. But that's, it's kind of farmed land, as everybody says, you know, you don't own your social media, there's always a danger that an algorithm change will change things, or they'll remove a feature that you've been dependent on, it happens all the time. And I've been seeing it all the way back to like, you know, my music marketing days when we all lost our MySpace pages, which is how we used to, like really market our bands and things like that. And then, you know, Periscope came and went, I mean, I think it still exists, but it's not the hot, you know, item it used to be, and what happens a lot of times is, you know, social media, a new one comes out, it's very generous with generous with its algorithm. And somebody, you know, people start figuring out, oh, this is how you use it to our advantage, and they kind of game it, they kind of figure out, you know, what it does, you're seeing it with clubhouse right now. And then. Yeah. And then the creators, either one of two things happens, the user experience starts to kind of tank because it becomes to marketing. And people who want to use it in a more connective, social way, start to complain and start to leave, or, you know, or some kind of critical mass happens, where everybody's doing their thing. And so it doesn't really have the same impact. And what happens at that level is some thought leaders start creating info products, and how to do the hacks that got them to where they are that I call this tactic hacking. And when that tactic hacking kind of reaches critical mass, it becomes either less impactful, because everybody's doing it, or the creators decide to switch the algorithm change and bam, it it doesn't work the way it used to work. And you're just gonna keep seeing this. It's been a pattern for a long time. And so going back to the original question, you need to move people into your email, you know, email marketing, yes, it's always going to be like, oh, email marketing is dead, blah, blah, blah, but like, it absolutely works. It's the place where, you know, you could nurture people, no matter what platform comes and goes, you own that list, and you have the opportunity to provide continual value to people. No matter what they do, as far as platforms, they're gonna be checking their email. What was the original question? Because I feel like I'm missing.

Michelle Hagen 23:09

How do we know I think like, this is great, though also talking about because, you know, I had said, How do you know, when online is ready? You had brought up you know, clubhouse, which is amazing. And it is it's a lot of tactics, and even we're seeing on clubhouse right now. If you're on there, this kind of growth of them realizing what is working in rooms, what isn't. But the interesting thing about clubhouse is you create your own algorithm right now. In a way, it'll be interesting to see if they start, create kicking in a more algorithm type thing. But the key of clubhouse is supposed to be that you create your own algorithm, and you control what you see. But we had talked about like, how do we know when our audience is ready for us to create a course? And, you know, does our lists have to be you know, because our audience includes our email list. So does the email list have to be at a certain number before you can be successful?

Glenn Allen 24:08

This is this is a difficult question. Because yes, and no, some people say, Oh, you need to have at least 1000 people just because of the numbers, right? And so if you're if you're just using your own audience, are you just using your own list? And I just had this conversation with with one of my JV partners a couple weeks ago, Michael Elsner, he's a he's an absolute genius when it comes to like affiliate launching, and he you know, he's he's got his kajabi millionaire pin and he does like, half million dollar launches. And all his launches have been six figures like he knows his stuff. So he said, Yeah, there's there's a, there's a point where your email, your email list is your ATM. And he's like, I'm not saying that some kind of scammy way, like just write an email and they'll give you money, but it's like, there is a numbers game to it, where it's just like if you have a great offer, and you haven't certain amount of people, the percentage of people who are will buy will give you a certain dollar amount, it's just going to work out that way, if you've been adding value, and loving your community, you know not if you're just like constantly selling, selling, selling, selling, selling, it's all about providing value to people. So there's that aspect of it, I hate to say like you're on your list as your ATM, that just sounds terrible. But there is a kind of truth component to that. But the other thing is, I had one of my most successful clients had 35 people on her email list, and she did a five figure launch. The key to that, though, was she had a key affiliate partner, basically, she had this great program. And she said, basically, I would like to partner with you on my launch, would you bring me into your world, my course is a perfect fit for years where if you take what I teach and what you teach, other people will have outsized results, and I know you don't teach what I teach. And so she did that, bam, then the second time around, we relaunched, and as you know, I think that was like maybe 14 to 16 k launch the second time around, I think, it was like, double that. And now you know, in her first year, she's done 300,000. And this is actually a system that we've repeated with a bunch of people, it's like, don't just do the affiliate billboard thing, where it's like, hey, my friends got a new course check it out. There's a way of doing this, where it's like you invite people into your world. And you just kind of like you do a video where you introduce them. And they're teaching and a little bit about them. Just let it be like a blog post or blog video or something like that. And then a week later, you can actually bring them in, do some training together and add value to the audience, and then make an offer, it doesn't have to be like this crazy formulaic webinar, you know, it can be very natural, and then you never have to sell from your inbox. You never have to burn out your list, you know. And so that's that's kind of the process that I've actually been doing for some people, a completely different launch, which Michael and I, we call the catapult launch, and we're actually beta testing a course right now that we've basically developed this whole thing. But yeah, it's it's one thing that I think a lot of people aren't doing. Well, number one, people don't know how to approach affiliates. Number two, like they're, they're just treating their emails as like billboards. There's another way.

Michelle Hagen 27:33

Yeah. I like that. And if I think if people take what you just said, and start to go look at some of the bigger names, we are already seeing them do that. And they do that like even within their events, where they bring their friends and their friends have pieces that they don't teach, but fits exactly with what the bigger offer is, at the end. We see, you know, Dean grazioso do that we've seen Brendon Burchard do that. Pete Vargas has done it. It's, you know, it's a way and if you start kind of watching some of the launches, I think people will realize how they're seeing that happen. Jenna Kutcher does it as well with her friends. So it's, it's effective, for sure, because it brings in like audiences as well.

Glenn Allen 28:20

This is why it's so important to like make friendships and real relationships online. I tell people, like don't be afraid to reach out to people, as long as you're doing it in a way in which as Russell Brunson says like dig the well before you're thirsty. In other words, like don't approach people because you have an offer. And you want to do this, like approach people to add value and create a relationship and build this thing long before you ever consider saying, Hey, you know, can we do this thing together?

Michelle Hagen 28:49

Mm hmm.

Glenn Allen 28:50

The opportunities are out there.

Michelle Hagen 28:52

Yeah, for sure. And even to just kind of piggyback like, one of the ways that I'm seeing opportunities of building your friendships and kind of creating a circle. We're seeing it on clubhouse, where there's these rooms that you can tell these people are connected and our friends, Brendan Bouchard had a room last night and guess what it was Jenna. It was Trent Shelton, Jamie Kern, Lina was in there, you know, they're all this this group of people that have surrounded each other to support each other. And that is I think a piece of that's really important to going into launches is having your group of people that I'm not expecting them to buy from me, I'm just expecting them to support me. When I'm like this is going to crash and burn Somebody save me or somebody telling me that because I opened the doors and some people didn't buy that. It's still working and to just keep going through the motions that having your group of people surround you is so important as well.

Glenn Allen 29:49

Yeah, I'm running a group like that actually. So like on Fridays I have my speaking of people the only see online and like want to just hang out with I started a group called the digital experts network. And it's like, you know, like my friend Amanda, the the, the a YouTuber. I don't know if you know Hannah Nia is she does like luxury branding and PR she's in there. Jacqueline Malone, the go to gal podcaster. Michael is in it. And these there's Zach Horvath, I mean his brother who does live a great story, which if you've ever seen like one of those like circular live a great story murals, they're all over the nation. He does like community movements. And these two guys who have a marketing agency called Magic. And they're like, they're so good at email marketing, Active Campaign has hired them to help them figure out how to use certain areas of their their own tool. So we all have decided, like, sort of during our Friday meetings, let's occasionally do a clubhouse together, and pick topics and like just like, bring people up and coach and talk and stuff like that we haven't quite nailed, exactly like the best way to continue do it. We've only done it once. so far. We're gonna do it again this Friday. But I think it's a great idea. And I think the challenge is a lot of us are still learning like, Okay, how do we really, for lack of a better word, capitalize on this idea? You know, what's the best case for this?

Michelle Hagen 31:14

Mm hmm. I mean, I'll give advice from what I've been seeing, because I like this last month got sick. And so I was doing a lot of what I've just been doing a lot of watching on clubhouse and learning. And what I'm seeing is when you're in those groups to support each other, like, I will know that you are the course expert. So when a question comes up like that, I'm what I'm hearing these group these big these groups do that have these panel type things is I would say, hey, Glen has a course for that, Glenn, why don't you just go ahead and tell them about it. And then they're like to each other up to pitch, but it's not, you know, being a spammy pitch at all. It's literally Hey, this is gonna be a service and value for this person. Why don't you go ahead and answer their question and kind of tell them what you have to offer. And that I think is the key of clubhouse because and in engaging and taking it outside of clubhouse, because clubhouse creates these deep connections, but the way that I think that I'm seeing it happen is being in a group and having your circle of people where you're kind of known as experts together. And then you're helping each other pitch each other because you know, you have been successful, we'll then turn around and you will help me be successful. Just like, you know, we do when we're networking in person, I think it's carrying over to clubhouse.

Glenn Allen 32:35

And I think we're doing it the right way. That's pretty much how he ran. It was it was like, Oh, you know, Hannah, you talk about PR, why don't you take this question. So yeah, I think we're on the right track, then.

Michelle Hagen 32:45

Yeah. So let's talk about you know, clubhouse is kind of the new wave. And before we got on, I asked you, courses are the big boom. And I think that people are always like, okay, what's next? And how can I? What, what's coming next? And can I be on the cutting edge of what's next from core after courses? What do you think is going to be the next wave? Do you think courses will always be around? Or will courses transition to like, what's next?

Glenn Allen 33:13

I think a few things are gonna happen. Um, some of the people who like desperately needed to create courses, you know, because they couldn't get back to their regular gigs are going to go back to their regular gigs, if they haven't found a bunch of success there. And some people like my friend, Chris, you know, when she she was a music producer, she was the one of the 35 people on her list. She's realized that now that she teaches how to produce music, and she's getting less successful, of course, she's doing less and less and less and less and less music production. But I think a lot of people will. You know, we've had to figure out how to network, right? So I think a lot of us are gonna start getting back to like, those traditional things like, you know, those retreats, we're probably going to want to actually do more in person networking, I think a lot of us had been forced to, like, get over the anxiety and fear of networking. And I think we're gonna actually, you know, there's, there's some people are like, yeah, I'm a great networking, I love networking. And there's this big part of the population. They're like, I know, I should, but I don't want to that I've been forced to do it online. I think they're going to be cool with doing a lot of in person networking events. And so I think there's gonna be a lot of that, and a lot more opportunities opening up for, you know, the workshops and speaking engagements and things. So I don't know that anything like super new will happen. But I think there will be a large amount of imperson event growth.

Michelle Hagen 34:37

Hmm, yeah, I agree with you. Because everyone that I hear everyone is craving. Like I just want to be together with people when it's safe, or when you know, whenever whatever the magic wand is going to be that we all finally decide that we're going to be okay to be together in bigger groups than a small thing. I think that it will come back to being events and I think And but I'm wondering, I don't think it'll go back to mass events. Like, I this is just my like kind of personal thinking and strategy. I don't know if it'll go back to big arena events, because we can hold big arena events on the computer. And we've seen that they can reach way more people. I'm wondering if they will go back to being these more high ticket or like exclusive, smaller, maybe like 100 200, where your connections can be deeper, because people I think, are craving that connection. And so that's what I'm wondering if that will happen. Because we're not going to be able to go back to big massive events right away. I'm wondering if something's going to be worse than the smaller things where we can connect deeper, but you still have more than just 1520 people there is kind of what I'm wondering, is what I think is gonna happen in the event world.

Glenn Allen 35:58

I think there's some validity to that. I mean, you see it even in the way that online communities are kind of changing. I was talking to somebody on a podcast yesterday. And she, I asked her about interesting podcasts question is like, do anything you want to ask me on this podcast, and I was being interviewed. And so the last question, I had to interview her, and I wanted to know about why she was doing a capped number of people in her network events versus somebody and she's local, and somebody else local, isn't doing like as many people want to be on this thing. And it's this huge thing. And she said, I noticed that, when you're on the main networking event, there's like 50, and like up people on this, and then you're expected to go do one on one. So now you got to follow up with a ton of people, it fills your calendar, she said, I realized that I can kind of reach pockets of people, I can do like six people at a time, and really deeply connect with them and do several of those and meet way more people and with way more depth. So I don't have to do all the double work and extra singled out, you know, meetings. And so I think we want not just to be part of something with a lot of people, but with more like intimate connective groups of people. Like kajabi is townhall meetings. I've really enjoyed those that a lot of great people. But like at first, it's like, you know, the big group of people, and then you do this great breakout rooms. And it's, you got like just a handful of people in there. Making connections. That's really what the value of those things are.

Michelle Hagen 37:33

Mm hmm. Yeah. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing on your wisdom of courses. I always like to ask people. My last question, if you could go back to even the little years of when your kids were little. And you could give yourself one piece of advice. What would it be?

Glenn Allen 37:54

Oh, so I would be the age my little my kids are?

Michelle Hagen 37:59

Like, if you could go back to the Glenn like when your kids were little like the baby years, you know, when you're deep in it, and you're like, are we ever going to come back up and beat people again? Which actually now I have another question. While we're in this? Do dads ever feel like that? Do you ever feel like you lost your identity of who you were in, in the mix of the baby years,

Glenn Allen 38:23

I think I didn't so much because of the kids. Because I was still like a performing gigging musician and writing music and doing creative things. But I think I lost it originally, in my first marriage. And I I kind of decided you know what the next relationship, I'm going to make sure that we both have our passions and our interests and support each other. Rather than kind of get on each other about like, Oh, you get to go do that. Now. It's because you have to have in your relationships, these kind of separate things that you bring together to help keep the well if you will, from growing stagnant. Otherwise, it's kind of there's just too much sameness and too much like I don't know, I just I don't ever want to feel like I'm limiting somebody from their passions, and vice versa. I don't want that resentment to sit in. And so I think if I had to do that, I would say, you know, don't give up on the things that you're really truly passionate about. And that that can be you know, friendships. And that that can be you know, especially maintaining relationships with other people. Like I think I when I did have kids, I just stopped hanging out with people. And now like, my relationships are really rich, and I can't believe I ever let that happen.

Michelle Hagen 39:33

Mm hmm. I can, I can totally relate to that. Because especially as moms and when we have these littles and my babies were all born in the winter, it's like you shut yourself into this hole. And you don't go anywhere. But it is that is 100% true and even if things have changed, because I know for women who leave the corporate world or men who you know, when you leave the corporate world and you transition to being more at home, these relationships, all change And it's finding who you are. But it's so important to then like, go find your niche of people who are in that time going to be your support people, whether it be like a mops group or a, or you know, some type of group that is in your same season to support you, I think is super important.


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