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From Gardening To Soap - Skills To Become More Self-Sufficient

"The garden is really like a teaching ground...If you're just growing one basil plant and you're incorporating that into chili or spaghetti or whatever, I think it's awesome for your kids to see and know where those come from and maybe get a little bit of science along the way." - Shelly Scott

Shelly Scott - Michelle Hagen

Shelly helps aspiring homesteaders and makers learn old-fashioned skills to live more self-sufficient lifestyles. She lives in the country with her husband and two young kiddos and is in process of renovating an1895 farmhouse. She thrives on teaching others, loves a good cup of french press coffee, and wants to educate people on the value of clean skincare products you can make yourself. Take a listen (or read below) today's episode to learn how you can find the courage to start one step at a time and gain the confidence to grow your own garden, make your own soap, find more natural, sustainable products and resources, and so much more!

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Michelle Hagen 0:01

All right friends, I am so excited to introduce you to one of my friends who helped me start my garden last year go from what was a tiny little thing to something that we use in family meals. She is an amazing maker of soap, bath teas, and has an amazing skincare business. I'm so excited to introduce you guys to my friend and Midwest. Mama Shelly. Welcome to the podcast. Hi,

Shelly Scott 0:30

thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Michelle Hagen 0:34

I'm so excited for us to dive in. I think this is a topic that we're going to talk about today that so many people started last year in as like their COVID Victory Gardens. And I think that people realize that something that they can do, and they're ready to expand. But before we dive in, why don't you introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about you?

Shelly Scott 0:58

Hey, y'all, I'm Shelly. Like, Michelle said, Midwest Mom, I'm in Minnesota, we have a 20 or 21 acre homestead 19 or 1895 farmhouse that we're renovating and, you know, kind of everything that we grow in our garden goes into our skincare business. And so it's kind of all intermingled, but I am just like, on a mission to teach, you know, the world about how to grow healthy gardens, how to preserve what you've grown, how to eliminate, you know, kind of the crud out of your skincare routine, and do that in such like a healthy manner. Because most, you know, nowadays, I feel like people have forgotten how to use those old fashioned skills. And so I'm just gonna, I'm just on a mission to do that.

Michelle Hagen 1:49

I love it so much. And it is just like you had said, How sad and it's interesting because I had never grown a garden until last year. And like this winter, I've nursed a bit back of basil plant that got, I don't know, left forgotten frozen in the window. But there's so much satisfaction when you are getting to use produce. And it might not be the whole meal that you're using, but pieces of it are something that you grew and like the kids knew where it knew the kids know where it comes from. And that's the part that I love about it.

Shelly Scott 2:24

And I think, for us, I'm a homeschool mom. And so the garden is really kind of like a teaching ground as well for us, you know, especially with COVID. You know, I've decided not to send them to public school, but they get such an education at our farm. And so if you're just growing one basil plant, or you're growing a parsley plant or something, and you're incorporating that into chili, or, you know, you know, spaghetti or whatever, I think it's really awesome for your kids to see and know where those come from and maybe get a little bit of science along the way, you know.

Michelle Hagen 2:57

Yes. I love it. Oh, okay. Yes. And the science like that. It shows the kids like Thatcher, I was always sending you pictures. In the summer of like, look at that dirt, all the dirt he saw. He's one cucumber that the plants got abandoned while we were on vacation over watered on accident by the neighbors. And my husband built me the most beautiful boxes last year and we like tarp to this area and the mulch down and then I was like wait, we put the boxes under a tree.

Shelly Scott 3:44

I feel like it's all a learning experience. I've been teaching so many people about like, even just like the beginning things of growing a garden It is so interesting to see how much people don't know. And when you don't know it, it's no fault of your own. You just don't know it, you know?

Michelle Hagen 4:03

Yeah, and I just was like, oh, it'll get sun cuz it had some the past year but our trees in our backyard have grown so much that poor Jake, we're gonna have to shovel all the dirt out I think this year and move the boxes or just find things that grow really good in like the shaded area and just need the Nebraska heat and a little bit of sun. But before we dive into gardening, I always love to touch on you talked about that you're a homeschool mom. And I know you're running your business and you also do sign language interpretation. What does it look like for you as a working mom on a daily basis and a weekly basis? What does that look like for you?

Shelly Scott 4:47

So this year was a little bit different I think because you know with with COVID and everything. You know at the beginning, my my sign language interpreting happens directly in the morning and whereas my husband would go to work during the evening. But his you know, his business was kind of impacted by that. And so we've just decided that he'll stay home and you know, take care of our kids and not send them to daycare. So I would work in the morning, and he would work at night. And now I'm still working in the morning as a sign language interpreter. And then after the kids go, you know, the nap time hustle, I do our business, you know, in the evening portion of that. And so, I mean, I haven't I wasn't so much a planner, you know, previously, but I feel like we need to plan to be able to get those business things done. And so it's definitely a muscle that is being exercised. So

Michelle Hagen 5:44

yeah, I love that. And, and just to even hear, like the balance of it. I think that sometimes, like we've talked about that people think that we're doing all of these things and creating all this stuff. And that's, and that's not necessarily true. And that's what like, I want to give women the permission into here, like, what I'm seeing on social media, and what I think is happening is really probably what is not actually happening behind the scenes.

Shelly Scott 6:12

You know, I mean, we don't, we don't make products every single day. You know, we make them maybe once or twice a week, you know, and I'm not, and I, you know, batch different things, so I can get all my emails sent out. So it's not like an everyday like, you got to hustle your butt to get it done. That would be super stressful for me. So yes, like the perfectly curated social media, whatever is, you know, take it as a grain of salt, because everybody's not like that. It doesn't, for especially for a working mom like me, like it doesn't. It doesn't look like those perfectly curated, little squares that you've seen on social media. So yeah, yeah.

Michelle Hagen 6:52

Okay, so let's dive in to creating our garden. And what does that look like to help our families be more sustainable? As we go into the winter months, and I, our winter, Germans were exiting the winter going into the summer months? I'm so excited about this Turner the past few mornings, when he's let the dogs out. He's been like, Mom, there's birds outside? And I was like, he's like, does that mean that the spring is coming soon? And we can plant stuff again. And I was like, Yes, it does. That, like the frost is, is leaving us. So I know that it's really important. And that to start seeding. And sometimes people say, start your plants inside, move them outside. And I you know, or there's some seeds that have to go straight into the ground, how do we even know what to pick when it comes to picking seeds, or what things do to start inside and then to move outside.

Shelly Scott 7:52

So I think what most this week, I was talking on our social platforms about, you know, what it looks like, like you have to first plan you know, plot out your space, many people forget that. And they're like, Oh, I need one of this seat. And I need one of this seat. And I need one of this seat. But like, you maybe have like 20 square feet, and you don't need like 500 seat packets.

So look at the back of your, of your seed packet. Yesterday, I just talked about that about many people just kind of overlook the back. And it has so much valuable information. It's like, if you're going to do a small space that you're growing in, it tells you if it's container friendly, if you're going to do a large space that you're going to plant it in, it tells you the spacing, and does it grow well in your area, and there's some of it that says go ahead and direct seed it right in the ground. So all of the information is like right there on the back of the seed packet. But generally what I do is something like dill, let's say I was just talking about that the other day. Deal. Some people started inside. But for me I direct so it because I feel like it's a stronger healthier plant if you just put the seed directly in the ground. So I feel like some of it is kind of a given take you you maybe do it, you put it started growing inside one year and then the next year, you're like, Well, that didn't do very good. So I mean, it's all like kind of testing to see what it what does well for you. But generally, if you just look at the back of the seed packet, it'll tell you if you should started it indoors, if you should start at four to six weeks before you need to plant or if you can just put it right in the ground and it will thrive.

Michelle Hagen 9:36

Hmm. So that's great how you were talking about the planning your space because really, in the you know, in these little bit colder months as we're building up we should be thinking about like, what do I even want to grow this year, getting the seeds and then seeing what the packets are telling us to do because last year I just was like, we're starting a garden and I don't know I'm gonna go buy all these seeds and We're gonna put them in the ground.

Shelly Scott 10:03

My husband and I, when we were first starting out, we were like, okay, I want one of this, and I want one of this. And before you know it, you have like, you know, five acres of seeds in you. And you really only went for like two things, but you got so like overzealous, and you don't have that space. So I've been telling, you know, people and educating people on how like, it's good, like, right now is the best time to start planning. And you know, And truth be told with COVID. Right now, people are scooping up seeds, because they don't know the what's going to happen in the world right now. And if you're just starting out, like, I encourage you, like, go ahead and get your seeds now because what was there a month ago? isn't there anymore? Mm hmm.

Michelle Hagen 10:44

So what are your thoughts on? I know, a couple of my plans last year, I had gotten seeds. I don't know, the birds ate them. I don't know, bugs ate them? I don't know. So I went and just bought some that a local lady grows in her little greenhouse and put them in because I wanted her to be able to feel like he grew something. What do you think about that? When people are like, Can I just go buy the plants that someone else has started? Like, what is the difference between the seeds and buying something from like a greenhouse?

Shelly Scott 11:18

Well, sure, I mean, I guess in in any aspect of like that, you can definitely if you're like, I don't know that I have a green thumb. And I can start it from a seed and get it to like a mature state. So I can, like planted in the ground Sure, like, go support your local nursery, or, like, wherever you get your plants. I mean, what a better way to support local business business if you just don't have the time. But uh, like a rule of thumb that my husband and I say is like, if you can't start your seed, if you can't start your plants from a seed, how are you going to nurture it? For the rest of the season? I feel like that's a good test, if you can water it and give it enough light and, you know, do all of those things, that's going to be a good indication on whether or not you can grow something and be successful at it.

Michelle Hagen 12:05

I love that. So how do we know like, where to plant them? I know, you know, we hear the word like growing zones. And I know when I did mine, it was called a square foot garden maybe where like we we we made the squares out by every foot so that we maximize the space. But how do we know like what that means? And I know with you, I see it on social media, you have like this whole map. And I'm like, Wow, that's awesome. I don't know like what any of that means.

Shelly Scott 12:38

So there's a, there's a thing called a plant your Plant Hardiness Zone. So basically, it's a map. It has different different growing zones, whether it's like negative 45 degrees or positive 35 degrees, it tells you what exactly will grow in your specific zone. So like here in Minnesota, something like artichokes won't grow here, because the growing because it's not hot enough during the summertime, but in a place like Texas, man that would go, that would grow great, right. And so this map shows you what exactly your growing zone is. And so like, contrary to popular belief, like you can't just go Oh, that'll grow good here and stick it in the ground. Like it just doesn't work. Because that means that heat and moisture and like all of those things leading up to like having a great space and a great healthy plant. So this map will tell you exactly what you can grow and what really won't thrive in your area.

Michelle Hagen 13:41

Mm hmm. That is so smart. Because I didn't even know that. And I and so I was like, I don't know, let's just try this. And we're gonna throw this into the ground and this into a pot. And I mean, this last year, we were pretty successful. And we did get like strawberries, but I did buy a plant that was already grown because I knew that strawberries from seeds. You don't get a ton maybe your first year sometimes. And that's just a great thing that I didn't even know to think about, like what grows good in Nebraska. I know watermelons do but I have like, but if I put a watermelon in one of my boxes, it will take over the box, you know, right? That's one thing that I had talked about and learned and

Shelly Scott 14:22

I think the biggest mistake is people put it in the ground. They don't know what their zone is. And then they like chalk it up to a fail but they didn't know that like that didn't thrive in their area. So then they're like for gardening but like it just was that one thing that you didn't know because it would it didn't it? It's not in that that environment that it needs to do well and so I just like urge people to look at their growing zone and what will do well in their area because like they will have you will have such like better success.

Michelle Hagen 14:59

Yeah, okay. So once we figure out what what is best in our area, how do we know how to plot it out? And, you know, because I know there's a lot of times where I we even learned, like companion plants and how do you plot it out? And what do you put put next to each other? What does that look like? And how do we figure that piece out?

Shelly Scott 15:18

Right? And so right now, it's funny that you say that, but right now I have a gardening journal guide that kind of gives you like, all the How to is like, what's a friend of a tomato plant? What's the fall of a tomato plant? Like, what's a friend of a bean? What is the fall of a bean. So you really have to do like, they're the simple pairing, like what we'll do well next to each other. And so right now, if you need a simple guide, like I have one right on our social media sites, but companion planting is such a big thing. Just like planting something that doesn't grow in your area and expecting it to thrive, you wouldn't plant something like you wouldn't plant a beat next to a pole beam because they're not friends. And if they're not friends, they're not going to grow well. So just knowing those simple pairings, some of the seed packets that you find in like local nurseries or greenhouses, some of them will have it, but most of the time, they don't. So you really have to do your research. So on this gardening journal guide that I've created, there's those common everyday garden vegetables or fruits or whatever, that I have just kind of all laid out for you. So taking like the guesswork out of gardening, and what will go well next to each other, like house, how close to space sit next to each other. That I think is a big, big struggle for a lot of people because they're like, Oh, well, like I have when I know, we talked about this before, about like your one foot sections. I'm like, Oh, your squash plant needs like a more space than your tomato plant, or, you know, so if you put them too close together, that things like blight, it kind of takes over your plant doesn't make doesn't allow it to thrive. And it also brings in pests, they're too close together and they don't get enough sun. It just really will, you know, kind of deter what will do well,

Michelle Hagen 17:21

yeah. Okay, so now I have a few questions about, you know, some common things that I would love to hear if it's like, myth or fact, from you. So I have heard that because like, I have boxes, but my boxes are pretty big. You know, I know sometimes people have boxes are like a couple feet, mine are like four, three feet about deep. Do you have to dig that dirt out every year and put all new soil in that? Or is it something where we turn the dirt and put the fresh dirt on top? What do you What's your advice on that?

Shelly Scott 17:58

So it's funny that you asked that because there's some people like on the left side of the fence, they're like, No, just like recycle your, you know, recycle your dirt and use it again and just, you know, kind of mix it up and put new compost inside of it. And that's my go to, like I don't ever believe unless you have some, something that's really bad for your soil inside your soil itself. I would never just recycle it. But then you have those on the opposite side of the fence that are like, Whoa, like, no, every year I'm gonna like go to the store and get new stuff. And I'm like, you're doing yourself a disservice. Because a you're like wasting money when I mean dirt outside, it's out there. You don't recycle it outside. And so it needs you know, all of the outdoors, the things to permeate the soil and so no, I would definitely recycle reuse your, your dirt inside your planting boxes.

Michelle Hagen 18:59

Okay, so what about, you know, we've always heard that thing and people are like, keep your coffee grounds and sprinkle it in your dirt. Is that something that you should do? Is there certain plants where it's like, yeah, put the coffee on this plant, but keep it away from this other plant over here?

Shelly Scott 19:16

I don't know. I guess I don't know what other people do. I actually do that with houseplants. I've never done that with garden plants. That's not to say it can't be done. But we do things like crushed eggshells in your garden, to keep away pests to like kind of boost the, you know, nutrients in the garden. So for me, I guess I don't, I don't usually do that with garden plants. But there again, I have like a 48 by 48 Garden. So that would be like every single day I'd be shoving coffee groans in the garden. And I just don't drink that much coffee. Truth be told. Yeah. But things like egg shells that we crush up from our chickens and things like that. Yes, I absolutely do. There's so many things that you can recycle, like egg shells and you know thing. peels from your cucumbers, everything that you can compost that can then go back into your garden. And it's just so healthy for the soil.

Michelle Hagen 20:16

I never thought about putting the peels of the cucumbers like, do you put those in with any plant? Or does it just go in like where the cute just like,

Shelly Scott 20:23

put that back in with the cucumbers? No, just like just in general. So like right here on the farm, we have like a compost site. So anything like peels from plants, the plants at the end of the year if they do not have blight. And so blights like that yellowish tint on side that are on the plants itself. So you can't actually compost blighted plants, because then it will, the spores from the plants will then infect other plants. But if they have no blade on them, then we go ahead and re compost them and then in a year's time, then you can just go ahead and put that composted material back on your garden because the worms and everything in the ground will like help turn it You do have to turn it once in a while to get it, you know, kind of mixed together but yeah, it's just having like a little spot where you can compost is so healthy for your garden.

Michelle Hagen 21:16

Hmm, I love that. Okay, so what about you've talked about the egg shells and helping keep pests away? And but what what are things that are natural ways to help keep pests away? Or do we just leave the bugs on there? I know last year, I had the problem with like these little white clear bugs, we're just eating thing, you know. So then it's like, do you go buy a spray? That is like a more natural spray that you put on? Or what are your tips for that?

Shelly Scott 21:48

Okay, so for my garden, I have a lot of plants, different kinds of plants, so plants that help deter pests, and then plants that bring in pollinators. So I think the key trick is, let's say you plant a tomato plant, and you plant a basil plant. The basil plant is really a romantic and bugs don't like it. So pairing your plant with something that's really has a really aromatic scent to it. I I think that will help you from not having to go to the store and buy those all those chemical sprays like I've not once put a chemical spray on my garden because I don't think it's necessary. If you plant the right things in the right sequence, then you really don't need anything like that. I'm interested, did you ever find out what those little white bugs were?

Michelle Hagen 22:45

I know my one friend Jenny who's listening to this is probably yelling what they are because she knew exactly what they were, you know, my friend, my other friend that helped me start but it's something that maybe happens here. And they'll kind of eat the plants or you just have to kind of like wipe them off. So I'm not 100% sure whether it what it was or it might be something that's native like to Nebraska, I'm not 100% sure. But I was kind of smiling as you're talking about the basil plants to the tomato and I'm like, oh, maybe I had that problem because I hadn't didn't have enough sun in the tomato plants away and there wasn't enough sun. Basil because it's a made up plants. But this year, it's gonna be a lot better because I know better now is yes.

Shelly Scott 23:27

I often think like so in here in Minnesota. This last year, we expanded our garden. And so I was like gung ho when I planted like 35 tomato plants, right. And so I didn't realize like in this new area that we were gardening everything bloomed because it was like, all day sun. And so we're a tomato plant would only need like two three feet, like mine needed like four and a half feet because it just like bloomed so big and then they were all like crowded together and like I had some you know blight issues when they get overcrowded. That's when the disease hits because they're like, they don't get enough air movement through them. They don't get enough sunlight. And so if I could like stress anything, it's like spacing is super important. Yeah.

Michelle Hagen 24:17

Which I know you grow so much because you then can them and you put them into your product. So I would love for you to talk to us a little bit about that. Like what does that mean to preserve our plants because I know you preserve them for your home but you also preserve them to then put into the products that you sell in your business.

Shelly Scott 24:37

Yeah, I think you know, our skincare line you know, to be quite honest, isn't isn't a lot different than most handmade products. But the thing that makes it different is like I know where every basil plant comes from. I know where every mint plant that I put on the top of my soaps come from. I source as much as I can locally. I use the otherwise waste resources of you know, fats from different animals for oils that goes directly in our soap, and I know where it comes from. And so I think that's what makes it different. We do a lot of infusions. And, you know, using plant based ingredients to color our soaps, there's no synthetic, anything in our soaps, and so you won't find it in any of our products, because I just think it's not necessary. One, I know that you and I have talked about it before, but things like bath bombs, right, you can get a bath bomb from, you know, anywhere, basically. And they have like, harmful detergents. Like the colors are all synthetic. And then people wonder why, like they're irritating their kids skin or like, it's not relaxing, because like, my body's all itchy. Well, I mean, it's because A, like manufacturers of synthetic ingredients don't necessarily have to tell you what's in the fragrance that they're putting, because it's a trade secret. And so you don't know what you're getting, they could put something like terribly harmful in it, and you wouldn't never know. And so like in our products, we have like all natural essential oils. plant based colorants. So it's all like good food from your skin. I always say like, if you can't eat a product, and I know that sounds crazy, but if you can't eat a product, you shouldn't be putting it on your body. Mm hmm.

Michelle Hagen 26:30

I love that. And I always think my thing is always if I can't read the label, and it's like, I know what that is. I know what that is. And I know what that is. I try not to you know, and I always joke that I'm like, the crunchy chicken nugget mom, because there's certain things where I'm like, okay, like, this is what like, with the soaps, and we try like with the shampoos and conditioners and stuff like that, because that's where a lot of a lot of women don't know, there's a lot of like actual things that really mess with your hormones. Yes, you know, pues and things like that. That we don't realize that there that there is but it is something that I'm always like, Okay is the chemicals in this. And for me, it's what is something that I put on my body, daily, you know, all like that, that those are the things that I choose to be super intentional with. Because, you know, in there might be like the one off like, I'm gonna spray myself with something because I stink because I worked out or whatever, or I cook something. So like, there's like a spray that's down by the door that I spritz myself with. But I don't do it all the time. It's more like, Oh, I stink. So I should put something on me. And I know that that is chemicals in it that probably are not good. But it's not something I put on every day. So I love how you were talking to you know, like to be able to eat it and to source it and know where it comes from.

Shelly Scott 27:56

I think the biggest thing that that turns people off about handmade products is a, they don't know how to take care of them. So like something like soap, like you can't just put your soap in a regular old soap dish that doesn't drain that doesn't do anything. And you're going to like end up with this slimy bar. Well, of course, because you're not taking care of it like it has to be well draining. And then secondly, the thing that I the thing that I get, you know, talked about the most is like Oh, so like if I'm going to transition to natural products like does does that mean that I have to like do it all overnight? Well, no. Like the if you run out of deodorant, cool, try a natural one. The next time you need deodorant or like if you run out of soap, try a natural one. And most people also don't realize that things like dove and Irish spring and you know what have you, you realize that they they can't put soap on the label. Because it's the FDA doesn't allow them to put so it's not actually soap. It's a detergent, like it strips your skin of the oils, the yucky oils that are on your skin. Whereas handmade soap can actually be called soap because it's just oils and you know, it's saponify is to like blend the oils and the water together and it's actually soap so just be cautious and you don't have to like do it overnight. I mean, I think that's the biggest takeaway for a lot of people is like, they want something simple, but they don't. They think that they have to do it all in one shot. But when that's like totally not necessary, you know? Yeah,

Michelle Hagen 29:31

yes, that's and that's even what I say. And I'm still on that journey of like, Okay, this makeup brand now it's time to like switch it over or to try like I've been on the hunt for the perfect foundation for me because I'm super picky about foundation. And I've been like trying to like nope, I don't like how that one oxidizes and Nope, I don't like that. So it is it's just continually trying things and just replacing them as you Go I love that tip that you gave, because it is it's just little steps one at a time. Yes, itis definitely is.

Well, I loved this conversation and I know you talked about your journaling that you have and I will be sure to link that in the show notes of this episode because I know that it is super helpful. And I am so excited for people to start their garden in you to start this journey of your teaching people of how to do this and to do it sustainably and in knowing and I love the one thing I love about you is it talking about like, just do like a little bit and just start with just even if it's just you're going to grow one thing this summer, just pick the one thing and and learn that really well.

Shelly Scott 30:47

Knowing that you can grow one thing and gain confidence that you can grow it then next year, maybe you'll grow something else like on our homestead. Like we can't do everything like whether it be because we don't have all the money in the world. Or we don't have enough we don't have all the space in the world or like we'll only have a certain amount of time in the day. So just starting small, but having the courage to start. Yes, is so important.

Michelle Hagen 31:18

Yes. Okay, so the last question, I always ask everyone to wrap up the show, if you could go back and give yourself advice to your younger self, whether it it's you know, whenever you were younger, or in the little years of motherhood, what advice would you give yourself?

Shelly Scott 31:37

Oh, man, not not to buy like lots and lots of clothes for my kids. Because I feel like I am like, I got so many clothes for my kids that I'm like, I don't know what to do with I think I need to have a drug sale. But not only that, but like starting my journey into teaching people about like wholesome products and how to use those old fashioned skills that I feel like are going by the wayside these days. Because like, if the grocery store runs out of food, what are you going to do? Like, how are you going to provide for your family. And so for a lot of people that's come to like the forefront of their minds these days. And so if I had any advice for my younger self, like I would have started teaching people earlier, just like my mom and my grandmother, and everyone taught me like, they didn't go to the store to buy lots of things, they grew it themselves and my grandmother, I wish I had her recipe to this day. But she made she made handmade soap growing up because they just couldn't afford it. And so knowing, knowing now, how to teach those skills, and I would have done that earlier much earlier.

Michelle Hagen 32:51

That's so great. And I love how you're passing down something that was like so important to your mom and your grandma. Like I think that those things that we can hold on to are so important.

Shelly Scott 33:02

They are they are

Michelle Hagen 33:04

If anyone wants to connect with you after this episode to learn more about sustainable living, gardening, all of your products, where can they find you at?

Unknown Speaker 33:15

Sure. We have our website, Little House on the There's also a link on our website to go directly to our shop. And you'll go ahead and take the direct link to our shop in these show notes. But you can find us there. I do a lot of teaching on Instagram and we have a Facebook group and so you can find me in all of those places.

Michelle Hagen 33:37

Thank you so much for being on the show today.


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